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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.02 04:54:00 -
[1]
Ive said it many times before... I dont feel minmatar have a good role in this game. Alpha strike and speed doesnt feel enough to define the race.
Speed is what the race has going for it, so you can avoid damage, but unfortunantly our guns doesnt track very well at high speeds. And the best ship ever for speedy operations, the Vagabond, is basicly considered overpowered despite it has no tank and low dps.
At least its a FUN race, but I feel the "jack of all trades" isnt very valuable or even true.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 10:54:00 -
[2]
I dont see things changing... ever. But im still going to specialize in minmatar just for the hell of it.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 16:55:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Barrick Stormsworn
(To be quite honest, though, I'm beginning to get this niggling feeling in the back of my head that a Caldari with 30mil in BS skills and me with 30mil will pretty much stalemate. The longer I play and study this game, the more I am impressed with its balance, even if that balance isn't evident at first.)
Well... Raven dps vs tempest/typhoon dps.
The dps in the graph is with maxed skills.
The Raven dps is calculated against a armor tank composed of 2 EANM II + DC.
The minmatar ships dps is calculated against a shield tank composed of 2 invuln II + EM hardener.
As you can see, Raven dps is higher than all the minmatar ships. I also tried using phased plasma (since thermal is the lowest resist on the Raven), but it didnt do much difference and Raven dps remains the highest.
Unless Ive done something terribly wrong, the Raven should have both the better tank and the better dps when taking into account the resists.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 18:12:00 -
[4]
- Minmatar: Are we fast and hard hitting?
- No, we are last and just tickling...
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 19:32:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 19:38:34
Originally by: Dixon
That is perhaps the most biased graph in the history of the world. Perhaps. Using hail and quake on sheild tanks and explosive missiles on armor is just plain wrong and horribly biased.
These kind of graphs only debase your point. Making a case based on exaggerations will only lead the Minmatar whine towards the horrible fate of the Amarr whine.
Why is it wrong for the Raven to use explosive missiles vs armor when its the lowest resist for a armor tanking Tempest using 2 EANM II + DC?
Ive made another chart with alot of different ammo types. Like i said in my first post, it doesnt make much of a difference. Phased plasma is slightly more effective since thermal is the worst resist on the Raven, but as you can see its not by much.
Please suggest another setup you would like to see if you dont like this one. Im not trying to make any point. It seems to me that minmatar battleships have worse dps than a raven when taking resistances of the standard tanks into account. Is this wrong?
Edit: I read your last post Dixon and you are missing my point. Im trying to show Tempest vs Raven, and Raven is a shield tanker. Im not trying to show ANYTHING else or make ANY point, ok? It was a reply to the guy who said he felt he was equal to Raven with 27 mill skillpoints. And it doesnt seem he was right, does it?
Im not even sure you can FIT 6 of those 800mm's and still have a tank... so the dps for the Tempest is probably more than what is likely.
Basicly im showing that projectiles are no good vs shields. They are good vs armor.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 19:47:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Instagib
Originally by: Dixon
Yes, I do. You're still comparing missiles vs armor tank and projectiles vs shield tank. Compare projectiles vs armor and missiles vs shield too, that's a fair comparison.
BTW: Trolls don't exist.
In case you didn't get it the point Jim was trying to make was the almost i-auto-win-raven vs tempest.
Sure you could shield tank the tempst, would just hurt the tempest even more. Though it would make the 3 DM mods on the tempest realistic.
Actually I should remove some damage mods and also switch to lower tier guns to really show a realistic picture. But I dont like to see grown men cry. 
No, seriously, projectiles suck vs shields but are very good vs armor. So... just making that point with the help of some graph magic. :)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 20:02:00 -
[7]
Dixon, I could show you other turrets vs the Raven if you like, and most of them do suck. Even the blasterthron with 3 damage mods, void ammo and a full load of drones doesnt break 350 dps on the chart.
Actually the only ship that seems to be able to deliver more dps than the Raven in this scenario is the Armageddon and the Abaddon if they fit tachyons and 3 damage mods (434 dps).
So yeah, Raven is a great tanker...its just funny how the dps is also better than most other ships at the same time. Some people would call this unbalanced.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 20:14:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:14:49
Originally by: Instagib
Though I personally would like to see the EM hardener dropped on the raven to confrom the more standard:
xlarge, amp, disruptor, 2xinvul, injector
3x dm, 1x ??, 1x dc
And locked low slot layout on the tempest, you can't have both 3 DMs and heavy tank. Something on the lines of 2x LAR, DC, 1-2 EANM, 1-2 DMs...
NB is working on a tanking spreadsheet... I hope he finishes it. Last I heard he was trying to think up a way to make it look user friendly. He felt the math was the easy part. :)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 20:25:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Instagib
I forgot to add I also find it very silly to have those 2x sieges on the tempest. Even though HW nos isn't needed for cap with injector they (or neut) are so much more important these days to deal with tacklers, hacs, etc.
Just my option, else you might as well put neutrons on the raven or something silly.
Yeah I know... I just put them there to not get the argument "what about the launchers?" when i was trying to show dps. The dps in these charts are actually ALOT more than what a practical setup would use... and STILL it sucks.
Tempest with only 2 damage mods and 6 425's using phased plasma only barely makes 300 dps. And thats at almost point blank... 5000 meters away. At 20000 meters the dps is down to 220 dps. And thats the best ammo available to break the shield.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 20:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: xeom
jim you have to understand while caldarie have probably the best tank and ussualy good dps they lack speed.This ussualy means you can avoid them easly and they can't hold ya down.Sure this means its able to take on more,but at the same time its more easly ganked as i can't out run small gank groups.
Yep, thats a fair point. I guess the Raven can be seen as a heavy weight boxer.. not very fast, but can take alot of damage and also deliver some really good damage.
The megathron can do more dps than the Raven in the chart if its using void ammo, 3 damage mods... and drones. But it has to get within 10000 meters to do it.
I think these charts explain alot... why Ravens usually win vs blasterthrons etc, despite their high damage. Personally i didnt really understand how much dps the Ravens could put out until tonight. Tanking means alot. :)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.02 20:45:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 02/09/2006 20:46:12
Originally by: Rehmes
Do we honestly even need to go through all this just to prove that ACs r underpowered? I mean just read all the posts ever made at how ever race jokes about us and how projectile (though flexible w ammo) have crap dps and need "2"...yes u saw it right 2 damage bonuses to even get close to being decent.
I dont know if they are underpowered, but they have big problems delivering enough thermal damage to out-dps the Raven using 2 invuln + EM hardener. Projectiles are still good vs armor though.. and luckily most people are armor tanking. :)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.03 06:32:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tachy
Minmatar ships had their speed reduced last year just because, rememeber?
And 'just because' because that's all we got when we asked for the reasons behind those changes.
I wasnt here then... what ships got changed and by how much?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.10 10:53:00 -
[13]
Once hyperion arrives, it will be less fun to be minmatar... :p
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.10 17:57:00 -
[14]
Minnie isnt so bad... explosive damage is still the best vs armor. :)
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
|
Posted - 2006.09.10 18:16:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 10/09/2006 18:18:29
Id love to see a +25% speed boost across the board for all minnie ships... but everyone else would be upset when they cant catch them. :)
Just look at the Vagabond.. when speed matters to that degree, the ship becomes really really hard to catch. People are fine with minnie having speedy ships, but only when it doesnt really matter. You dont really see any complaints about minmatar being too fast now, do you.... :)
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